On January, 2003, an interview with Mark G. "Markman" Pinske, who worked as all-time sound engineer for FZ from December 1979 to 1986, was published on the Online Extras section of Mix, the magazine of "Professional Audio and Music Production." The interview was conducted by Chris Michie and it's available here: http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_complete_mark_pinski/index.htm
It was a great long interview with so much information and it prompted me to get in contact with Mr. Pinske to ask him still more questions in order to put in context some of the stuff he talked about in that interview. He was kind enough to answer and share some of his memories with us, and what comes next is the result of our conversation via e-mail, which took place between January and March, 2003.
I Remember Dave Logeman doing one US tour and one Europe stretch with us, but that was all. He was hired to do the You Are What You Is record. If I remember correctly. Who is Sinclair Lott?? I never met him. Never even heard of him. If he was ever in the band if would have had to have been less than one day.
I didn't know that Vinnie had quit the first time (before I arrived) I thought that he and Frank had a falling out. When Vinnie quit later it was with Jeff Berlin at rehearsals over a money issue and that was when we brought Chad Wackerman into the group. (I think Frank said we tried out 31 drummers or something like that.) It sure seemed like that many. I couldn't tell you most of there names if my life depended on it.
I remember him now once I saw the picture. I don't think he was a part of the normal auditions. I think he was brought in by one of the band members (Artie I think) and had some problems with going out on tour too long or something like that. Frank always said it was a girl. "It's always a girl," that's one of Frank's famous quotes other than Vinnie "where is the one" Colaiuta. Then there is always the "money."
The rehearsals for that tour took place I think at Hollywood studios, but Frank rehearsed the band many times for most tours at Joe's Garage because that was free. We only went into the sound studios right before the tours when we were at the point of doing full dress rehearsals and wanted to set-up the full lights and sound systems. (That way we could emulate the whole show) Frank would usually buy a lighting system from LSD lighting and then hire three guys to do the tour and sell the system back to them after the tour. This was a lot cheaper than renting one for a whole tour.
Yes, it was there all the time. Still is.
Frank was cutting and pasting cuts from all over the place during that time and I had worked on a number of edits, etc. It wasn't something that was worth printing my credit over.
One of the tracks we did was something left over that had a missing kick drum. Most of the guitar albums were done with recordings that I didn't do. Except the one called Guitar later. I did that one. I find it just easier to say that they weren't my albums even though I was working out to help. Because I'm not credited on them it makes sense. It's not a big deal. (I got plenty of them later).
No, I never got to meet Steve Nye and I can't tell you a whole lot about most sessions before my time except for the stories that Frank told me. I did meet Joe C. and Davie Moire and got to be friends with Davie later. (I think Kerry McNab left some of the best reels behind) I always wanted to meet him.
I'm pretty sure that session happened before I was hired (12/1979). I did work with Alan Sides later on a number of projects. I didn't get to work with Terry until later as well, and then with Missing Persons I developed pickup's for his roto tom drum kit. (Terry would come up to the studio from time to time as would all of the musicians that played with Frank.) There was many tracks laid down that way when they would stop by to see what Frank & I were working on.
Yes, that was a feed from this little mixer that I was using in the club and a couple of mics that we hung in front of this tiny stage. The whole mixer was behind the bar next to the cash register. Klaus & I were right next to each other and the place was real crowded.
That was a separate console that Mick & I setup in a room upstairs (Midas console) and we ran a snake with some feeds both direct split and sub mixes from my house console. I think the machine we rented for that show was a 1580, I don't remember for sure, but later came the 1600, the 1610 and we bought a 1630 which had better converters in it.
Yes, that was the first digital recording Frank ever did. He did not like the sound quality on it and it almost kept us from going with digital later. Frank said that it was like getting 8 k darts in the middle of your forehead. And that it really hurt your ears.
It depends on if your talking about the europe leg or USA. We used a 24 track when we got back to the states and most of the recordings we did overseas were on a SoundCraft 1 inch 8 track. Frank would pull anything at anytime from anywhere so there was no chronological order to this stuff. (He would drive me nuts, because I was suppose to make everything sound consistent on an album from all of these different sources.)
Most of You Are What You Is was our first "Studio album."
You're right, I think that was written on the lacquers that were cut, but they were not all the same mixes that were released later. Frank changed the name after we did more work on it and wanted to save the Crush All Boxes title. (I think part of it had to do with the album cover concept).
Crush All Boxes was a title that we had used a couple of times and was an album that we changed also a couple of times. The actual "Final" finished Crush All Boxes was mixed by me and Frank and we did the master tape on the Ampex 102 1/2 inch machine with Telefunken "C4-D" noise reduction. It actually had a "Truck Driver Divorce" mix on it that I did featuring the "Figet" Emu keyboard setup that was awesome and it had a "C Instruments" mix on it as well. It was never released or played on any radio show.
The Crush All Boxes that was played on the radio was an early collection of songs that we were working on at the time for Tinsel Town Rebellion & some of You Are What You Is. This was way before the actual final Crush All Boxes that we did later. Frank was trying to save the name for another double album. Which is what we finally did. Frank was not settled on some of the performances and we ended up doing studio over-dubs on a number of the vocal tracks and mixing most of those songs again after they were re-done. Not everything was re-done, but as you know Frank liked to edit one song right into another (usually right on the down beat) so we mixed and match final mixes until it played right for both of those albums. We would have as many as 5 or 6 different mixes of each song many times and sometimes the mixes would include a different vocal or guitar solo, etc., with edits from other cites. Frank liked to play with takes until he felt he had the best ones from certain tours, etc.
When we finally got the real Crush All Boxes done, Bennett Glotzer (Frank's manager) said the record company did not want a "double album" and that they only wanted a single album. So we put the final mix tape in the vault and started on the "Drowning Witch" album.
None of the actual finished takes from the (what I call real) Crush All Boxes album were ever put on any record while I was still working with Frank. (At least not until after 1986). Marqueson said to me much later that they never found the real master in the vault. It was just in two white boxes with my hand writing down one side that said "Crush All Boxes" and on the top of the cover I had written "C4-D". We later started doing everything digital and/or without and noise reduction so even the machines were no longer in the studio to transfer that set of master tapes.
None of the double Crush All Boxes album was used on Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch. Nor was it the Chalk Pie project. They were all different recordings that to the best of my knowledge are still to this day not released.
I still do not like history calling that record Crush All Boxes because Frank never did release it with that name. We could not help the fact that a bootleg was named that. Frank himself never released Crush All Boxes like I said before he was saving that name for a "more complete" album, I think that was the way he put it anyway. And, dead or alive I still honor Frank's wishes.
We did do some speed adjustments for the "You Are What You Is" video that we did at the soundstage. But that was to match a more commercial length. As for the bootleg, the tape (or whoever made it) was probably not playing at the right speed. I never heard it so I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that Frank was real picky about what key the songs were in and that the tapes would all be exactly at the right pitch. So because of that, when we took edits from the end of a 14 inch reel or from the front of a 14" reel the speed might be a little different. Because of this it was not un-common for me to "VSO" the tape machines up or down XXX amount of semitones to match the tune to what Frank wanted.
Well you're right, you're being creative. What you're saying above was not at all out of the ordinary around Frank, but like I said before we would have many mixes from many different cities even of the same song and there were probably more mixes of songs that never made it on any album's than there were that did.
I don't understand the need to try to explain exactly which performance landed on which record because when it all boils down to it most of the live edited songs came from a multitude of different performances and the only thing that most of them had in common is that I recorded all of the multitracks that Frank razor blade edited together and I do know that he was amazed that the edits would work. He told me he had never has live recordings that were that good ever before I came along. This was all ok for the ego, except that it also meant that every musician was playing the same tempo and that every member of the crew did an incredible job of keeping the guitars, drums, etc., in perfect tune. That is why I choose to look at all of these recordings as an amazing combination of talent both on stage and behind the scenes that all came together to make them possible.
That is right, that was Steve's audition. When I recorded him on that though, he was not hearing Frank's Guitar and was playing from memory.
Bob Harris (who I used to play with in Helix) came in and sang on the Tinsel Town Rebellion album which was the first thing out of the studio. His audition was "Fine Girl" the high falsetto ad libs through the song. Frank nicknamed him "Sky King".
Well, if you want the details, Steve sat right next to me (on my left side) at the console with a Stratocaster and we overdubbed him at different points through out the whole album. (That was Steve on "Beautiful Guy.") We set up the "Blue Box for Bimbos" right in the control room and Frank and Steve tweezed sounds right there and Frank made up parts for Steve to play. We had a set of the Carvin/Marshall tops with a pair of Marshall speaker cabinets set up out in the studio that I miced up with a pair of AKG 414's and two D112's. We laid some parts on some songs that were not even used in the mixes. Frank liked to have more rather than less as I'm sure you already know.
David over-dubbed on his own session. Ed we dubbed in on many different sessions. I think Ed held the over-all record not just on this album, but on many others as having the most overdubs of any musician.
That was all Steve with Franks coaching.
Motorhead came in from a plastering job that he was working on with plaster all over his pants. He said that he had not played his sax in over 3 years and when he took it out of the case he blew a few notes and noticed that he had a couple of broken valves. Then he said that it was ok and he would just play around them. He then whipped out this great little solo and that was about it. I used to keep a log of all of the over-dubs because I had to be responsible for who got paid for what. Somewhere I have some of the log sheets, but most of them stayed with the studio. Anyway it was all written down on the track sheets as well.
Klaus was helping early in 1980, but George did the rest of that and we had cased up the 24 track machine, because Frank was not real happy with the 8 tracks form Europe, etc., and we were trying to improve the live recordings all of the time. Some of them came out OK. It wasn't until we built the recording truck and I stopped mixing the house that we got the real good stuff because the truck allowed us to have more control over everything.
Yes, Tommy Fly was brought in because Frank wanted better recordings then we were getting out of George.
Yes, that is right and Thom Ehle helped him on that one. We also did some better routing and had more time to set up the room which made for a better recording on that show.
You are right again, I got some of the city order mixed up in my head because we were moving so fast. But yeah, we were working our way back down to L.A. so Berkeley would have been first and we were in Santa Barbara when that happened. All I remember mainly is Frank took it real hard and almost couldn't go on stage that night.
Yes, that is right. They were rehearsing at Joe's Garage.
No, I just remember Frank being real let down about Vinnie and Jeff making such a big thing about the money.
Here is how it went. Frank wanted to find someone I could tag team with because we had too much work to finish. First we tried out Alan Sides because Alan had done some of the live recordings from a remote truck before for Frank (1978 I think). Frank thought Alan was a little slow and he always wanted to do things in a different way then Frank did. Alan did lay a few overdub tracks that we used on You Are What You Is. Then we tried out Bob Stone and Frank didn't think he would work out because he didn't want to work long hours. Next we worked with Dave Jerdan who I thought was the best engineer out of all of them and Dave and I worked very well together. (Some of his work was used later on Man From Utopia). But, Dave got another gig and he was then out of the picture which brought us back to Bob Stone.
No, Alan was first they were not around at the same time. Again, I can't tell you anything about that version of "Drafted" because I wasn't there and we re-recorded it again later.
You're right, they are just pulling stuff from anywhere and releasing it. I don't think there is anyone left at the studio who knows who did what. That is why the credits are so messed up. They wouldn't have had this album if I wouldn't have transferred all of the original Freak Out, Ruben and the Jets, etc., from the original masters for them to work with. Plus I over-dubbed on all of those digital multitracks with Frank. This is just more of some of the stuff that Gail took my name off of. It doesn't matter really, because I wasn't really a part of any of those original recordings, but I did spend months restoring them.
I worked for weeks on the original Helsinki tapes that Frank had the original "Whipping Post" lyrics to "Moving to Montana" on. He and I did mix a number of versions of masters from all of the original Helsinki tapes that I transferred, but I don't know what happened to them. They must of just ended up back in the vault as well.
Yes, that is right, except most of the auditions took place at Joe's Garage. And then sometimes we brought them into the studio to finish with them. (If they were good.)
Sounds about right. We were always doing multiple things. We had to because we had deadlines for getting the records done in between tours. Sometimes we would go right up to the night before we left. I remember one time Frank picked me up in the Limo after I had pulled an all nighter cutting lacquers. I went how and decided which dirty clothes I was going to pack, threw them into a suitcase and met him downstairs.
Roy didn't come up too often, but when he did it was always fun. He and Bob Harris sang a lot of high falsetto parts into the walls at the back of the studio for that song and I recorded them with the right angle plexiglass PZM mics reflecting off of the walls. (When they did the aaaaahhhhh-oooooohhhh parts, etc.) Roy was never auditioning to get back into the band, Frank just liked his real nasally falsetto. Frank said he ate clothespins for breakfast. Ha! (That's like holding your nose with your thumb & finger.)
I remember Jimmy quite well, I got to record him on a whole bunch of different tracks. It was good to see Frank & him work together again. I know they were doing some writing together, but I don't remember the name of the songs. As we talked about before Frank would often change the name of a song just after you started liking the one it had. I think he just got a big kick out of keeping us all guessing. Plus if something would happen that was a big deal he would somehow work it into a song. You know, most of his stuff is built around true stories. Like "Carol You Fool" around the girl that I met in Pittsburgh (Carrie Mellon), well I guess her real name was Carol, but she like me to call her Carrie.
What I remember is that Steve Vai and I were trying to hit on the same girl and nobody knew who he was then so I went back to the apartment with her and Frank and her girlfriend. (So whichever one he was it is it.)
Well, there was an early version of it where Steve Vai and I sang vocals on that was done to the ARP track that we later used on "He's So Gay." Frank went back and forth on two mics that were on the far left and right on the mix. Saying "Markman, Markman, Markman, etc." It was really funny. Somewhere there is only a cassette of it. Then I think that Frank wanted to do a "doo-wop" version of it. I'm not sure why, unless he thought it might tell more of the story. So like almost everything else that was his idea not mine.
We did goof around with both of the tracks but, No it wasn't over the original track. We just used the same ARP synth bass track that Artie did and a few other instruments.
No that didn't happen very often. That was at Madison Square Garden and they wouldn't let us run the snakes from the truck. Frank called me into his dressing room and said, "Do you know what they said?" And I said no, then he told me that they said they wanted $5000 dollars for each show for get this: "The right to record your own material." Frank said, "Markman, we don't really need another night that bad, do we?" And I said, "No." Then Frank said, "Why don't you go and mix the house tonight?" I was happy about that because I sort of missed doing in and it was New York which I always loved the crowd at anyway. But no, that hardly ever happened. I think maybe one other time either in Cleveland or Chicago. But, that's it.
Sometimes Bob Stone would still piddle around with a few things, but usually it was empty, because we would steal a lot of the devices out of it for the tour.
No, we went right back into the studio. (Vacation??? What is that???) Frank & I worked all of the time.
That was a mess about Al's solo. I don't know why he was being so picky. To tell you the truth, I think we had a lot of Chalk Pie as outtakes to other things we were doing all along. I do remember putting everything on hold to do Drowning Witch because Bennett was on our ass to get it done. It might have been Chalk Pie, but I seem to remember for sure that we stuck Crush All Boxes in the vault the same day we started on "No Not Now" for the DW album. Because I didn't take the Telefunken C4-D units off of the two track until then and CAB was the only masters we ever did on the 1/2 inch two track that had C4-D noise reduction. I remember Frank saying that we were going to start using it on everything and then we didn't because we went to the agfa 468 tape which let us bias higher and then we got much hotter levels on the half inch and stopped using any noise reduction at all. That was very close to when we started using digital masters after that anyway. Sometimes my mind ties it all together because as you know we were always moving very fast with Frank. Do you remember what the master tape format was for Chalk Pie? That would tell us the exact order.
FZ must have been losing his mind sooner than I thought. When we finished the DW album Frank got out his schnapps and we did a little toast to the finish of the album. (Frank and I only did this when an album was finished. At no other time did we ever drink anything with alcohol.) This was at about 2 o'clock in the morning. Frank just set down his little shot glass when he said, "Oh shit! I forgot I promised Moon she could sing something on this record, do you mind staying a little while longer?" I said, "Of course not!" He asked me to find some tape we could use for her to sing on, and I said, "Frank, we don't have much that we could use," except maybe some jamming that I had on a 14 inch reel from when we were testing out the studio. He said, "Go and get that." I went down to the vault and grabbed that reel and put it on. It was just him and I think Chad got "dogn dogn doo, dogn dogn doo, dogn dogn doo, da, da, da, da, da, da, dah" (Like a garage band). Frank said that will do and he went up to wake up Moon. (Now it was 3 o'clock in the morning.) I think that is where he got that from. Anyway she came down chewing some gum and said what do you want me to do. Frank said whatever comes to mind and I put her out in the vocal booth on a Neuman U47 FET condenser mic through a UREI 1176 compressor/limiter and started rolling the tape. She just started talking like a valley girl (because she hated all of the vals at her school). The rest is history. I could give you a blow by blow after that which has a lot of details. I Think Bob tracked Scott on it the next day.
Yes, we used Artie most of the time.
Most of our album cuts were not taken from the same sources. As an example the intro to the "Mammy Nuns" song which is the very first thing on the Thing-Fish album was taken from the sound check at the Sportahalle in Vienna. Frank started out by saying to me in the recording truck to go ahead and roll some tape because he wanted to lay down an idea for later. He then did a guitar chord "dahnt da ta da da dahnt" on his guitar and clicked his footswitch for his "MXR" digital delay to loop. He then set his guitar on the stand and let it loop so I could record "with the PZM mics" the way it sounded going out into the room. I had the mics on stage pointing out toward the audience so you could hear the sound roll out from the stage into the room. Frank loved the sound of empty rooms when there were no people in them. He conducted the band at that point and I think Tommy Mars (my roommate) took the first solo on the comper. There is no artificial reverb on start of that track at all. That was the sound of the room. There were many edits on the cut like there were on most cuts that took us all around the world.
Another example is "What's New In Baltimore" that went from the theatre in the round in Baltimore to the Tower Theatre to the guitar solo from the Hammersmith Odeon to Hamburg, Germany, back to the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. Most of our live songs went through many cities. Hardly ever just one live cut. We would dub something across the edit like a cymbal crash, etc., that would make the edit no noticeable to the average ear.
I don't remember the venue, but yes, I do remember the song. We used a lot of the actual show tracks for Thing-Fish as well and just recorded over the vocals with different lyrics. (After I backed up the original master tapes of course.)
He was just singing to a track that we already had in the can for something else and Frank was in another creative roll. I think we got most of that on video?? If I remember right. If you look at the end of the Dub Room Special I'm credited for production and I also have a separate credit for recording engineer. All of the dub room stuff was just me and Frank for over 90% of it.
You got it real close to perfect, we only did the dub room stuff so we could do a "behind the scenes" special in the dubbing room which only cost us $90 an hour. I made a PZM headband out of an ampex 456 tape binder for Frank to wear on his head to kick it off. Truth is we were spending $430 per hour down in the main room for me to re-mix the Baby Snakes movie. I re-mixed 4 versions of that movie. One in stereo, one in Mono, one for the full theatre version and one version for video. We couldn't change the credits because they were all done for the original film. All we did id remix the audio for the 35mm Mag prints. I worked my ass off on that Picture record and the movie.
There was a version before the sound effects were added. It never got a full release, but it also had a little more in it. I liked it because it played quite a different way without the egg drop sounds etc. that we overdubbed later.
When Frank was writing, that is when I would do the transfers and some of the restoration work of old shows. That was still all analog then before we went digital so I was mixing some old tapes then and I would be in the control room during most of that time and Frank would come in and see me when he took a break. Bob was pretty much off during that time.
Well we did record Man From Utopia before LSO, but it was in phases. The opening song "Cocaine Decisions" was an experiment of the "ultimate studio drum sound" that Chad, myself and John Good (from DW drums) were working on. I used EMT compressors on the toms and they sounded awesome. This was all after the 82 tour because we used a cover that was showing the mosquitoes and the riots from Italy on it. In the Dub Room Special there is live footage from Sicily when I kept all of the tapes rolling and recorded the whole riot on tape in the recording truck. They smashed out the windows in the bus next to my truck, but I kept the tapes rolling. I think 3 people got shot.
That sound right because we had wrapped up many of the other projects.
I think we added a shot-gun mic on him.
A shotgun mike is just that it is a long thin mike shaped like a long pencil that picks up at a distance in the direction you aim it.
He did "In France" and a number of other over-dubs.
No he didn't. He came up to the studio a number of different times. (He was a gas.) He also sat in on stage in L.A. when we kicked off one of the tours along with George Duke and a couple of other guys.
You do a better job at the chronology than I ever would! I think it was a good while before, because we were all excited when he showed up.
That was a piano track recorder by Bob Stone. (You can tell because it is so "over compressed") He wasn't very good at tracking. That is when Frank told me he didn't want Bob laying anymore tracks.
The original recording I did with them was when they were just trying out and I grabbed the high hat mic (A D 1000 E AKG) at the time for Dale. (Boy did I regret that because Frank wanted to keep the tracks and build on them for the other sessions.) It was tinny. That is when I knew you treated everything like it was the finished take.
Yes though Thana came in at different times to do the Hunchentoot sessions. Lisa Popeil was on them before her. Frank liked Thana's voice better that Lisa.
Steve was there just after I remixed and during some of my studio mixes of the Baby Snakes movie as well. We spent a huge amount of time on the Thing-Fish album. Also Francesco Zappa and other Synclavier stuff which Steve left and turned over to Dave Ocker later.
In short remember that we kept re-doing Thing-Fish and inserting more and more material, sort of updating it, as Frank might say. I thought we worked it too much into the ground. Because we did have a complete original format of it with less swearing, etc., that would have worked in a real onstage performance on Broadway. Remember the original idea was that "Harry & Rhonda" went to a New York Broadway play and somehow the play turned out to be about their life? It played better in the original format because we didn't have all of the re-hashed You Are What You Is songs with different lyrics in it. It ended up taking off in a different direction with the Mammy Nuns, etc., San Quinton stuff. (Which was funny in it's own right). But, as I said the original play could have actually worked on Broadway.
No I wasn't there for that one. I stayed in the studio.
Yes, when 1985 came around it seemed like everything started moving to listening to the vaults of tapes, shows, etc., and just remixing a lot of old material.
That is when we over-dubbed Chad Wackerman and recorded over the drum tracks that I worked so hard to restore from the original tracks. Frank wanted to put the newer drum sound on the tapes. I thought it was a stupid idea (I still do), because they didn't have anything to do with the original performances and I thought the fans would not like it. Plus I had worked so hard for so many hours previously on restoring all of those tracks. It was painful to erase all of the work. They really did sound pretty good, I was proud of them. I thought Frank was getting real carried away with studio processing after that point. Which is when I started losing interest in being there.
No, we did more recordings and a lot of overdubbing with various musicians. (A good bit of the over-dubbing was on older recordings.)
Yes, that is right. After that I started having less and less to do with any of the work coming out of there. My name was on most of the original recordings because I did them, but it shows how much they were starting to recycle the old material. Bob started remixing and remastering for the CD's and I think he ruined a lot of the good mixes we had before on the records.
That sounds about right to me. I remember when we were doing the slates for the Dub Room Special, Frank had out a sharpie pen and was going to write the slate himself and he asked (while he was writing), "What day is it?" And one of the guys said the 22nd (or something like that) and Frank said, "Of what month?" And everyone started laughing. Truth is he really didn't remember what month it was. I can remember feeling the same way many times because we were working all of the time. Didn't matter which day of the week it was or which month it was. One time I had to beg Frank for a day off and he asked me how many days we did straight. I said 44 days without a break. That was the honest truth. There were no weekends.
Yes very clearly. I will be glad to give you details on that one when I got more time because that was a long story and there was just 3 people in the studio that night. Frank, Bob Dylan & myself. Needless to say I felt quite privileged. I will say this much, when I walked Bob down the steps to his car at about 3 AM in the morning he said that he hadn't had that much fun since 1969.
Yes, we did them many times in the 80's when certain people came over we put them out in the yard (our term for the far end of the studio) by the piano and I would fire up the mikes and we put packing blankets hanging down around the sides with the top propped up. We would tape down the damper pedal of the piano so the strings would resonate to the sound of whoever was talking and put two or three people in it at the same time to talk about whatever they wanted to. The basic theme is that they were in search of the "Big Note" and that people lived inside of this place. (It often sounded like a big cave.) So whenever somebody new would stop by and we had the time we would do this for fun. I usually ran this onto the 2 track ATR 102 tape machine like I did when we were tracking vocals and other stuff. Somewhere there is a big shelf full of "Studio out takes" that I did with sessions of what Frank said through the talkback and with the musicians live mics when we were tracking and the conversations that they all had creating parts, etc. I believe that they would be the most interesting tapes the fans could ever hear because I always ran that machine when the multi-track wasn't running. (Many erased vocal harmonies and parts, etc., would only be on those tapes.)
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